Factors contributing to increased isolation in modern life Modern life is becoming more isolating due to factors such as the decreased amount of free time spent in social scenarios, the diminishment of public space, the spread-out nature of spaces we occupy, and the growing divide between people due to the difficulty of putting ourselves in proximity to others in public shared space. Transcript: Speaker 2 So you write that, quote, it’s no secret that modern life is isolating and that if anything, it looks to be headed in the direction of increased, not decreased isolation. Why do you think that’s the case? Speaker 1 Well, there’s a number of factors, I think, that affect the increasing circumstances of our isolation factors such as time, decreased amounts of time that can be spent freely, especially Freely in social scenarios where we are just hanging out with other people, interacting with them, having conversation with no set agenda or real sort of like goal that’s supposed To guide that. Another factor is space, both the diminishment of public space, which is something I talk about a lot in the book, but also the way that spaces themselves or the spaces that we occupy And frequent seem to grow more and more spread out. This is the kind of American phenomenon of the suburbs of space and sprawl, but it’s also something that I think increasingly creates these divides between us as these spaces open up Between us and it’s just harder to put ourselves in proximity to each other, especially in public shared space. Speaker 2 One of the things I understand your book (Time 0:03:38)
The Shift from Community Living to Isolation in Modern Society The insight revolves around the societal shift from community living to isolation. The speaker reminisces about the joy of living in a group house with friends and how in contrast to most of human history, contemporary society values isolation. They raise the question of whether one’s default life setting is towards community or isolation, and highlight the unusual era in human history where the default has shifted towards the values of isolation and having one’s own space. Transcript: Speaker 2 I want to pick up on something that was in that answer, which is the 30 miles away and broadly structure, right? You could talk about it as space. It could be a spatial structure, a temporal structure. When I talk about the group house, the point of the group house for me, which I loved that period of my life, is that I lived in a filthy, truly a filthy house with with three friends and atmospheric Hanging out that they were just around and their friends were around and their partners were around and sometimes my friends were around and my partners were around. It just happened. It wasn’t something I had to do. It wasn’t something I had to put a bunch of of effort into. For most of human history, we lived more with extended family. We lived with clans. The atomization of this area is pretty unusual. I have a friend, Zarena Agnew, who is both a neuroscientist and works on community living arrangements. And something she talks about is whether you have said the default of your life towards community and you take the problems that may come with that, right? The sink is dirty. Or you said the default of your life towards isolation, towards space. And we’re in an era and it’s in an usual era in human history that we’ve really, a lot of us at least, have really set the default against community towards the values of isolation, of having Our own space. (Time 0:08:24)
The impact of private property on solitude and isolation The concept of solitude and isolation is closely tied to the expectation of private property, which brings pride, privacy, and the ability to distance oneself from society. This can be seen in the fascination with houses located far from neighbors, as seen in a Reddit thread about isolated houses. Transcript: Speaker 1 That is an interesting way to approach this subject and it’s what I’m going to have to mow on a little bit here. But I think a lot of it stems from the expectation of private property and the expectation of what comes with private property in terms of like pride and privacy and distance and isolation That you get to choose when you want to be alone and when you want to shield yourself from society. As I was researching for the book, I stumbled upon this Reddit thread and it’s where people kind of talk and post photos of like these houses that they found on the internet. They’re like amazing looking and look, there’s like no neighbors within like 40 miles or something like that. (Time 0:09:51)
Challenges and Loneliness in Family Life Across Socioeconomic Classes The access to ‘third spaces’ between home and work, which are important for family life, is increasingly difficult for the middle class due to pressures and expectations. The middle class faces the burden of conforming to family expectations without the financial resources available to the wealthy. In contrast, working class populations often maintain closer family structures. Additionally, a recent study found that young adults feel lonelier than seniors, with 79% of young adults reporting loneliness, possibly influenced by the pandemic. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah, in the book, in the chapter where I talk about third spaces borrowing this concept from the sociologist, Ray Oldenburg, I talk about how third spaces, which are supposed to be Those spaces that exist between home and work, are something that becomes increasingly difficult for one particular class, I think, to access. And I think that’s really the middle class. The middle class in America is particularly prone to some of the pressures that come with family life, in part because maybe perhaps they’re trying to emulate what they see from more Privileged members of society, because you’re right and Brooks is right here too, that the rich find a way out of this by basically extending their family structures with the help of Money. So they pay for childcare and they pay for cleaning help and they pay for other people who become attached to the family unit and help the whole family unit run. But if you don’t have that money, then you are left with the expectations of what a family is supposed to look like without all the extra resources and all the extra help. And I think that’s a burden that falls very uniquely upon the middle class. And then, of course, down at the bottom among working class populations in the United States, we actually see, I think, some of those more proximate family structures staying intact, Where we see people living with or living closer to extended members of their family than perhaps we would among middle class and upper class people in the United States too. Speaker 2 I want to talk to you about the age structure of this. I was pretty surprised by this recent study by Sigma that found that about, well, almost twice as many adults aged 18 to 24 reported feeling lonely versus seniors aged 66 and older. So 79% of young adults and 41% of seniors. And by the way, 79% of young adults feeling lonely. I mean, that’s really bad. And you can attribute some of this to the pandemic. (Time 0:35:25)
Challenges of Social Comparison and Optics in the Digital Age The challenge of hanging out and socializing for younger people is partly due to the lingering effects of the pandemic and the multitude of ways to compare their social lives with others using digital platforms. The prevalence of digital interfaces and social media has made the optics of socializing seem more difficult and even impossible at times. This is evident in settings like college classrooms, where young people are immersed in their phones, communicating with others elsewhere, rather than engaging with those around them, due to a fear of public exposure and judgment. Transcript: Speaker 1 And I think it’s, of course, partially related to the pandemic and the fact that the pandemic is not completely gone. But I think it’s also related to optics because we have far more ways now and many more mechanisms by which to see what hanging out and social life is supposed to look like for other people, Which means we have far many more ways and tools for comparison with ourselves against those models that we see, whether that is on social media when it’s on Instagram or Facebook or Something like that, or whether it’s on television to talk about reality TV in the book as being one way that we kind of eavesdrop on other people’s social lives or, you know, various Mechanisms, whatever it happens to be, most of them which are attached to a digital interface. And I think this is partially what makes hanging out hard for younger people. But at the same time, I also think it’s part of what makes the optics of hanging out just look more impossible, that even when it’s happening or even when you have access to it, it’s just More difficult to find your way into it. And as an example, I think about what an average college classroom is like these days when I walk into the room before the start of class. And generally, when I walk into the room at the start of class and there’s a lot of young people and they’re getting ready to start class, it’s dead silent and, you know, everybody’s staring At their phones. And I don’t blame them. And what they’re doing is they’re talking to people most of the time. They’re talking to someone who is somewhere else, who is, you know, going to have a conversation with them, who’s going to talk about with them about their day is going to help them process Whatever’s going on in their life. And I don’t think it’s a lack of a realization that they could have the same conversation with the person sitting next to them. I think it’s more about a fear of the risk that comes from doing that, that there’s this kind of public exposure that’s going to happen, or you’re going to be judged in the act of trying To start a conversation with somebody you don’t already know yet. (Time 0:37:45)
Impact of social media on social relationships Social media was initially expected to make socializing easier and bring people together in real life, but it has led to a shift in behaviors and the power to curate social interactions. While people are indeed substituting real-life interactions with online interactions, it is not the sole issue. The ease of forming relationships online and the ability to curate interactions have also contributed to a change in social behaviors and dynamics. Transcript: Speaker 2 Well, I think there’s a lot, there’s a lot of places to go here. Let me, let me pick this one, which is, do you buy the view that it is a substitution digital social relationships that in some ways, social media was built off of the social graph, right? Originally, Facebook rolls out at a college campuses, it’s your friends. Early Twitter, you know, takes office, people use it to make plans with each other. Because I feel like people forget this, and a lot of people are too young to remember it. But it used to be hard to text a lot of people at once. Like, that was not an easy thing to do. Early texting didn’t really have that quality. And I think the expectation was this was going to make socializing easier, bigger. You bring up the advent of Facebook parties at your own college, where parties became more open to more people, you could go as long as you had Facebook. This was also supposed to make it easier to find your people and to be together in real life. And we don’t really seem to see that. So, as your view that the issue is substitution that people are doing it online instead of in real life, or as your view that there’s been some kind of other atrophy or friction that has Emerged. Speaker 1 I think part of it has to do with substitution. But I don’t think that’s the end of the story. We are certainly spending more time online than we used to. And we’re also becoming more comfortable with the tools that allow us to form relationships within those online spheres or within those channels. But it’s not simply about the substitution itself. I think it also has to do with the kinds of behaviors that we cultivate when we’re interacting online versus when we’re interacting in person. And one of the behaviors I’m thinking about in particular is the power to curate who and how we interact socially. So, I’m thinking about the way that, you know, on the Internet, if you encounter someone who makes you feel uncomfortable or if you encounter somebody who does not hold the same opinions As you or somebody who is acting in a way you don’t approve of. (Time 0:39:40)
Impact of Online Interaction on Social Behavior The increased time spent online and the comfort with online tools has led to the cultivation of different social behaviors compared to in-person interactions. Online interactions provide the power to curate social interactions by easily avoiding discomfort or disagreement, which is not possible in face-to-face interactions. This difference in behavior training in virtual spaces does not necessarily carry over to real life, leading to unique social consequences. This distinction in behavior also resonates with the difference between anger and contempt, where anger seeks resolution and can bring people together. Transcript: Speaker 1 I think part of it has to do with substitution. But I don’t think that’s the end of the story. We are certainly spending more time online than we used to. And we’re also becoming more comfortable with the tools that allow us to form relationships within those online spheres or within those channels. But it’s not simply about the substitution itself. I think it also has to do with the kinds of behaviors that we cultivate when we’re interacting online versus when we’re interacting in person. And one of the behaviors I’m thinking about in particular is the power to curate who and how we interact socially. So, I’m thinking about the way that, you know, on the Internet, if you encounter someone who makes you feel uncomfortable or if you encounter somebody who does not hold the same opinions As you or somebody who is acting in a way you don’t approve of. It’s very easy to find a way to not have to interact with them. You can close the browser tab, you can exit the text message stream, you can block them if we’re talking about social media, so that you don’t have to interact with them anymore. But we don’t have the ability to do that when we are confronting each other face to face. And in fact, if we do try to do those things, sometimes there are real social consequences that happen. And I think that’s another level of how this is working. So, it’s not purely about substitution, but it’s also about the way that we train our habits and our behaviors in virtual spaces in a way that doesn’t necessarily carry over to real life. Speaker 2 It reminds me of a distinction that Arthur Brooks, who has made this very unusual my lifetime turn from head of a large right wing think tank to happiness researcher in guru. But that he made to me that I also was quite wise between anger and contempt. And he said that anger is a constructive emotion often. It’s an emotion that wants resolution that it’s going too far to say brings people together. (Time 0:40:45)
Impact of Wireless Headphones on Social Interaction The rise of wireless headphones has significantly changed social interactions by creating a barrier to spontaneous conversations. Previously, people walked around without headphones and were more open to talking with others. With the prevalence of wireless headphones, it has become more challenging to initiate conversations in public spaces like coffee shops or parks. The presence of headphones sends a clear signal that it is a larger social ask to engage with someone, leading to a reduction in normal neighborly interaction. Transcript: Speaker 2 I want to talk about another dimension of digital life, which is in social media, but actually operates in the real world, which is the rise of wireless headphones, basically. And look, you can go back to the advent of The Walkman, which is for people who don’t know the original tape player produced by Sony. So headphones, walking around with headphones, which people worried would be antisocial even at the beginning, it’s a pretty recent invention in human history. For most of the time that human beings walked around, they didn’t have anything else they were listening to, and so it was fairly easy to talk to people. But even when I moved to DC in 2005, and I was in my early 20s, I was single, I remember there being or feeling like there was much more open space to just talk to somebody who might be sitting At the table next to you, or maybe there still is that in bars, I’m not exactly sure I’m not a big bargoer now, but it felt to me like the idea that you would walk up and talk to somebody you Didn’t know in what you’re calling a third space, in a coffee shop, in a park, that kind of thing. It was live, and even if they wouldn’t want to talk to you, it wouldn’t be a particularly unusual thing that you did it. And now, and I don’t exactly know, but I think it’s sort of the opposite. I mean, the idea that you would bother somebody while they have their air pods in, it’s such a larger social ask, and it is overwhelming, so much clear a signal. Now, maybe it’s better. I’m sure a lot of people got bothered when they didn’t want to, but the reduction in just normal, neighborly interaction, just like, you know, talking to somebody while you’re in the Checkout line, instead of listening to this podcast, which (Time 0:45:24)
Changing Attitudes Towards Social Risks for Children There is a changing attitude towards social risk for children, with a conflict over sleepovers and social media. The hashtag nosleepovers was started by a psychiatrist on tic-tac, highlighting concerns that sleepovers can expose kids to situations beyond their maturity level. However, some argue that such experiences are important for relationships and childhood development. Transcript: Speaker 2 I want to think a bit about the changing attitude towards social risk and particularly for children, because the kids getting to you in college, there were kids before that and they Were younger and their parents had more control. And by producer, Annie Galvin, who was working with me on this episode, she made me aware of something that made me feel that either I have gone crazy or the world has gone crazy. So there’s this conflict over sleepovers in social media, apparently. And this hashtag no sleepovers started by a psychiatrist on tic-tac caught on. And he says in this video sleepovers often provide the right opportunity for kids to get into things that are way over their head, whether they want to or not. And I don’t know. I’m not saying every sleepover is great, but the level of trying to protect kids from any kind of socially awkward scenario, whereas I got into tons of stuff I should have gotten into At sleepovers, including keeping houses, which was probably not my finest moment as a person. But that was important for those relationships and for being a kid. (Time 0:49:29)
Changing Attitudes Towards Social Risk and Children’s Social Interactions The changing attitude towards social risk for children is reflected in the conflict over sleepovers and social media usage. Some parents are trying to protect children from socially awkward scenarios but this may contribute to mental health issues and self-harm. Embracing awkwardness as part of the emotional landscape and allowing children to experience socially challenging situations, such as sleepovers, may be important for their development. Transcript: Speaker 2 I want to think a bit about the changing attitude towards social risk and particularly for children, because the kids getting to you in college, there were kids before that and they Were younger and their parents had more control. And by producer, Annie Galvin, who was working with me on this episode, she made me aware of something that made me feel that either I have gone crazy or the world has gone crazy. So there’s this conflict over sleepovers in social media, apparently. And this hashtag no sleepovers started by a psychiatrist on tic-tac caught on. And he says in this video sleepovers often provide the right opportunity for kids to get into things that are way over their head, whether they want to or not. And I don’t know. I’m not saying every sleepover is great, but the level of trying to protect kids from any kind of socially awkward scenario, whereas I got into tons of stuff I should have gotten into At sleepovers, including keeping houses, which was probably not my finest moment as a person. But that was important for those relationships and for being a kid. And a lot of parents seem to have defaulted into an almost terror, a social awkwardness or misbehavior or danger for their children, which at least seems to me to be contributing to this Much larger danger of terrible teen mental health and self-harm. But I guess to hold this on the sleepovers saying, I’m curious what you think when you hear that, this fight over sleepovers? Speaker 1 Well, first of all, I was not privy to this conflict. So this is the first time I’m hearing of it. And I do find it kind of interesting. Awkwardness is part of our emotional landscape. There’s no real way to avoid it. It’s just something you were going to run into at various points in your life anyway. (Time 0:49:29)
The Nature of Risk in Social Interaction The speaker discusses the prominent theme of risk in various stories, illustrating situations where individuals faced uncertainty and potential harm. However, upon reflection, it is suggested that the actual risks involved are often minimal, mainly revolving around social fears such as rejection or exclusion, rather than severe physical harm. The speaker explores the underlying fears associated with social risks, attributing them to influences from narratives and media consumption rather than personal experiences. Transcript: Speaker 2 But risk is interestingly a big part of your book. I would say that an unusual number of the stories, given what I would have expected, involve some level for a risk. There’s a story on a New Year’s Eve where you fall in with a bunch of strangers and you’re going bar to bar and that eventually to a house party and you realize at the end, you’re somewhere Maybe you shouldn’t be or at least you don’t know how it’s going to turn out. And it turns out okay. But there is a real element of fear there. You talk about an academic conference where a more established academic puts you, let’s put it this way, like in a situation he shouldn’t have and tries to do you some, I think, reputational Harm. There’s a story about almost falling off a mountain and dying that, you know, and even when we talk about air pods and you know, a lot of people didn’t want random guys coming and hitting On them or random people coming and talking to them. So there is this interesting way in which the downside of a more openly social and spontaneous life is a fair amount of risk and even sometimes real harm. I’m curious how you think about that. Speaker 1 Well, I’m not sure about the real harm part. And that’s something that I do try to explore in the book is thinking about what do we fear when we are afraid of these types of risks? What are we, what are we concerned is going to happen? And what I conclude, at least in many cases, is that the risks themselves are pretty minimal. Now, sometimes we’re talking about real bodily harm or risks, but I think those are in pretty extreme examples and cases. And they’re probably more linked to, you know, the fears that we have partially developed from the stories we’ve heard and maybe even from the media we’ve consumed than they are from Personal experience. I think when we’re really talking about social risks, what we’re talking about are pretty minimal things like momentary rejection or feeling like we’re not included in something Or feeling like, you know, we don’t get to participate or come along with something. (Time 0:52:18)
The Impact of Social Interactions on Workplace Satisfaction The constraints introduced during the pandemic have led to a reduction in informal social interactions in the workplace, impacting the ability to sustain relationships. A personal anecdote illustrates how making friends at work has enhanced the quality of work for an individual. The arrangements of work have shifted during the pandemic and have not entirely shifted back, leading to ongoing debates over returning to the physical workplace versus allowing more autonomy to work from home. Transcript: Speaker 1 It’s not something I get to experience very often these days anymore. Because of the constraints that were introduced to office work during the pandemic have not really left us. We’re still living with the residue of a lot of that, I think. So during the pandemic, obviously, you know, workplace culture, the ability to just kind of like gather informally and talk to people around a coffee maker or around a printer or something Like that was certainly curtailed. We didn’t have those same opportunities. Many of us were working remotely and we couldn’t have that kind of like casual small talk that helps to sustain relationships in the workplace. But you know, recently I was in Pittsburgh where I was visiting with a friend who’s also a former student of mine, somebody I taught when I worked at the University of North Dakota where I was before I moved out here to Vermont. And this student who’s now in her late 20s and has a job and everything last time I’d been talking to her, she had been mentioning that she didn’t love the job, she loved the work, but you Know, was sort of finding her way into the job. It was a little hard. And so this time when I was talking to her, this is about two years later. And I asked her how the job was going. She’s still in the same place. And she said, Oh, it’s so great because I made friends at work. And now I have these people that I know I can go in and I’ll see, you know, pretty regularly and I’ll talk to them. And that has enhanced the quality of the work that I’m doing on a daily basis. And I think that’s true for so many of us. But what makes it difficult is that the arrangements of work have really shifted. They shifted during the pandemic, of course, and then they never really shifted back, at least not entirely. There’s been that ongoing debates over getting workers back into the physical workplace and having them use the space of the office versus those who would like more autonomy and the Ability to work from home. (Time 0:56:28)
The Purpose of Writing and Intimate Conversation Writing serves as a means to create a record of one’s understanding, to process personal experiences and respond to external events, and to involve others in the processing of those experiences. Intimate conversations, whether through letters or phone calls, also serve as a way to process and seek support in dealing with personal struggles and relationship issues. Transcript: Speaker 1 Yeah, writing is certainly one of those, one of those channels. Writing is the act of trying to create a record of your understanding of something. And that is true of a letter as much as it’s true of a book or a poem or any other form of writing. The difference of course with a letter is that you presume you have some kind of very specific audience that you’re writing for. But with the example that I brought up with Tove Janssen, that audience was very, very far removed and she had no idea when the audience was even going to receive and read the letters. So it did become, I think, this kind of act of like record keeping of thinking about what was going on with her personally, of responding to what was going on with the war, processing those Events, processing a lot of trauma and struggle that came out of the war too, and then doing it for the sake that, well, eventually, somebody else may be able to read this and join in the Processing with me so that we can do that together. And I think that’s part of what we do when we hang out in these more intimate scenarios, one-on-one, is we try to process things together and we bring someone into that work with us. I grew up in the 1990s, which was really like the telephone generation for teenagers my age at that time. And I think about how much time I used to spend on the telephone at that age. I was lucky enough that I had my private line that my parents got me, which was a rite of passage for teenagers at the time periods because we didn’t have cell phones. So I had my private house line and I used to have like four, five, six hour long conversations with people on the telephone back then, which was all about getting to know somebody and having Them help me process something, whether that was related to relationship turmoil or friendship issues or stress at school or whatever it was. (Time 1:08:49)