Qué es la teleología y por qué es importante. Transcript: Speaker 1 Well, it became a focus of my attention in part because it’s really behind not just mind and our ability to have purpose and direction and goals, as you say, but even the simplest living Process is a process that is aimed at something. It’s trying to accomplish something if nothing else just to keep itself going. The first law of thermodynamics says that matter and energy can’t be created or destroyed. They can be inter-transferred from one to the other like nuclear processes, but mass energy, whatever we want to call that substrate of the world. It’s basically conserved. The total amount of it stays the same. On the other hand, information can be created or destroyed. The fact that living things can be born and died, that there can be extinction of all life or that there can be the birth of life on some other planet or like on the earth. This is telling us that this is something different than just matter and energy. And information, although we have a way of thinking about information just as pattern, pattern is everywhere in the natural world. It’s everywhere in stars and planets and galaxies and geology. But patterns about other patterns are a different matter. How does something become about something? And ultimately, I think the story of teleology, the very essence of teleology is this thing that we might use a sort of simple term aboutness. How does aboutness come into the world? And aboutness has one thing that also other kinds of patterns, pattern relationships don’t have. And that is, there’s value. There’s what we sometimes call normativity. There are true representational relationships and false representational relationships. In the world of chemistry and physics, there are no good or bad physical processes. There are no good or bad chemical processes. But when life comes into play, there can be good chemistry and bad chemistry. There can be things that are supportive and things are not. These are normative features. These have value. So value is something that, of course, is essential to human life and essential to how we conceive of the world and ourselves. But it comes into being. It emerges out of a world where there wasn’t value. Aboutness emerges in a world where there wasn’t aboutness before this. And that’s a philosophical mystery, but it’s also a physical process. It did happen. This transition happened. So as a matter of fact, there must be a story to be told about how that happens, how value and aboutness and purpose come into the world that didn’t exist before them. (Time 0:10:00)
concepto teleología
La teleología nace con los seres vivos e inaugura la noción de Valor en el universo. Transcript: Speaker 1 Ultimately, I think the story of teleology, the very essence of teleology is this thing that we might use a sort of simple term aboutness. How does aboutness come into the world? And aboutness has one thing that also other kinds of patterns, pattern relationships don’t have. And that is, there’s value. There’s what we sometimes call normativity. There are true representational relationships and false representational relationships. In the world of chemistry and physics, there are no good or bad physical processes. There are no good or bad chemical processes. But when life comes into play, there can be good chemistry and bad chemistry. There can be things that are supportive and things are not. These are normative features. These have value. (Time 0:11:20)
autopoiesis emergencia teleología valor vida
Función de una máquina u organismo como una restricción de sus posibilidades. Transcript: Speaker 1 When things become more ordered, we’re just saying that they’re less than chaotic. Not all degrees of freedom are being realized. And as things become more ordered, just the opposite happens. We subtract off degrees of freedom. Another way to think about a machine, a machine is made up of a bunch of parts. And when they link up with each other and influence each other, what do they do? Well, they all engage in certain kinds of movements, but not others. When a machine is assembled, it is assembled so that only certain changes can take place. And if that’s true and it’s maintained, that machine will produce a function, a purpose. We might build it for that purpose. Now, the building of it was imposed. The purpose is not the machine just keep running. It’s what the machine produces as a consequence. It’s not the machine itself. However, if it’s held together by screws and bolts, if we loosen a few of them and we allow some degrees of freedom of movement to increase, it stops functioning. So one of the interesting things about the very nature of function, even as we think about it in terms of machines, and of course it’s going to get more complex with organisms, but even In terms of machines, we recognize that function is the result of the constraint on what the parts are doing. (Time 0:16:21)
agencia autopoiesis constraint función
agencia autopoiesis constraint función
The Origin of Life: A Dissipative Process Transcript: Speaker 1 So one of the ways that I think we’ve been misled in the discussion of the origins of life is that we’ve discovered over the last century, more than a century now, a lot of processes that Actually on the surface of it look as though they’re reversing the second law of thermodynamics. That is where there was once chaos, there becomes more orderly activity. The most trivial example of this is probably a whirlpool that forms, for example, in your bathtub when you pull the plug. The water molecules in the bathtub before this are moving at random, bumping into each other according to Brownian motion. But as soon as we pull the plug, water molecules around the drain begin to organize their movement so that over time they become highly regular in which almost all the water molecules Are moving in a circle, creating this whirlpool as it drains out. It turns out that if you were to constantly disturb that whirlpool, say by your hand messing it up all the time, actually the tub would drain slightly slower. And it turns out that when processes are dumping energy, we sometimes call these dissipative processes, they’re dissipating energy. When they dissipate energy quite rapidly or as they approach more rapid ways to dissipate energy, they become more orderly. Why? Because orderly movement more quickly moves things from place to place so that if there’s a tendency in the world to maximize the flow and the breakdown of a gradient that is a difference In potential, then it will tend if there’s a big pressure to dissipate that potential like gravity pulling water down this hole, then what will happen is it will spontaneously organize. (Time 0:20:38)
Order emerging from chaos: Misconceptions about the second law of thermodynamics The discussion of the origins of life has been impacted by the misconception that certain processes appear to defy the second law of thermodynamics, where chaos becomes more orderly. For example, a whirlpool forming in a bathtub as the water drains demonstrates an increase in order from previous random movement. However, continuous disturbance to the whirlpool would actually cause the water to drain slightly slower. Transcript: Speaker 1 So one of the ways that I think we’ve been misled in the discussion of the origins of life is that we’ve discovered over the last century, more than a century now, a lot of processes that Actually on the surface of it look as though they’re reversing the second law of thermodynamics. That is where there was once chaos, there becomes more orderly activity. The most trivial example of this is probably a whirlpool that forms, for example, in your bathtub when you pull the plug. The water molecules in the bathtub before this are moving at random, bumping into each other according to Brownian motion. But as soon as we pull the plug, water molecules around the drain begin to organize their movement so that over time they become highly regular in which almost all the water molecules Are moving in a circle, creating this whirlpool as it drains out. It turns out that if you were to constantly disturb that whirlpool, say by your hand messing it up all the time, actually the tub would drain slightly slower. (Time 0:20:38)
Self-organization and constraint in dissipative processes Dissipative processes, which involve dumping energy, tend to become more orderly as they dissipate energy rapidly. This is because orderly movement facilitates the flow and breakdown of a gradient or difference in potential. As a result, the world tends to self-organize, leading to constraint and order in movements and processes. Transcript: Speaker 1 It turns out that if you were to constantly disturb that whirlpool, say by your hand messing it up all the time, actually the tub would drain slightly slower. And it turns out that when processes are dumping energy, we sometimes call these dissipative processes, they’re dissipating energy. When they dissipate energy quite rapidly or as they approach more rapid ways to dissipate energy, they become more orderly. Why? Because orderly movement more quickly moves things from place to place so that if there’s a tendency in the world to maximize the flow and the breakdown of a gradient that is a difference In potential, then it will tend if there’s a big pressure to dissipate that potential like gravity pulling water down this hole, then what will happen is it will spontaneously organize. The world tends to self-organize and that’s one of the terms we use, self-organization. But here’s the problem, self-organization does produce order, that is it produces constraint. Not all the possible movements of water molecules are there, they’re now constrained. What’s happened is this happens spontaneously, this is why we call it self-organization. (Time 0:21:34)
Spontaneously Generated Order and Organism Building Processes that spontaneously generate order are like whirlpools emptying the bathtub faster, using up energy as fast as possible. While organisms need orderly processes to build and maintain, self-organization alone would destroy itself. The paradox lies in using self-organizing processes to build and maintain order without letting them run to completion. Transcript: Speaker 1 In fact, they do it faster than otherwise. The whirlpool actually empties the bathtub faster. The problem is what that says is that if you have processes that spontaneously generate order, they also are using up the energy that drives them as fast as possible. In fact, if you want to think of them as having a purpose and end, of course they don’t, it’s spontaneous, it’s to break down the very support that it has as fast as possible. To build an organism, you have to produce orderly processes. You have to push something beyond equilibrium so that it becomes regularized in the same sense. Here’s the problem. It can’t be just self-organization because self-organization would destroy itself. It’s in the process of destroying itself. The paradox of bodies is they have to use chemical self-organizing processes to build and maintain their order and their organization, but cannot let those processes run to completion. How could that possibly happen? (Time 0:23:16)
Generic and Widespread Nature of Early Stages of Life Origins The early transition of life likely involves simple molecular processes and is probably widespread in the cosmos. This process does not depend on copying molecules like DNA or RNA, and it precedes the formation of a master molecule that controls biological functions. Transcript: Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly. Speaker 1 Now, and this is a very abstract sense of how you cross that threshold. My guess is that there’s probably many molecular ways in which this can be realized. I’ve come up with one sort of model system for talking about it. But I think I think this is if you think about it, what this says is that at least that aspect of life, this transition probably can be accomplished relatively easy with simple parts, Simple model molecular processes. And that suggests to me that is probably at least this first stage is probably pretty widespread in the cosmos. Whether it can get complex like us, that’s a much bigger question. It takes much more special conditions. But this is not a very special relationship. And so I think of it as a fairly generic way to think about the origins of life. But notice that this is a version of the origins of life that is not about copying molecules. It’s not about DNA or RNA or some master molecule that seems to control things like a manager. This is actually about a process that has to precede that. (Time 0:27:08)
The Origins of Life and the Emergence of Memory and Building Capability The origins of life can be viewed as a process that precedes the existence of DNA or RNA, focusing on how molecules carry information to organize other molecules and their interactions with the environment. The challenge lies in understanding how a molecule in this process becomes able to carry and organize information. Once a self-maintaining and self-repairing system is established, it effectively possesses a form of memory. With memory, the system gains the capability to build. Transcript: Speaker 1 And so I think of it as a fairly generic way to think about the origins of life. But notice that this is a version of the origins of life that is not about copying molecules. It’s not about DNA or RNA or some master molecule that seems to control things like a manager. This is actually about a process that has to precede that. The real question is, okay, given that, how does a molecule within that process become about other molecules? How does it carry information that organizes what other molecules do and organizes what other molecules do with respect to the environment so that the whole system is maintained? This is the next question. So crossing this threshold, I think is not probably difficult in the cosmos in general. Going beyond that probably is more difficult. And yet one of the things that’s quite clear is that once you’ve got a system that in a sense maintains itself and repairs itself when damaged, when pushed away from its balance of the Parts that are in relation to each other, then you’ve also got something that’s like memory. It remembers where it was. And once you have memory, you can build. (Time 0:27:57)
Understanding Emergence and the Origin of Normativity in the World The term ‘emergence’ has been used in diverse ways, and while it’s not magic, it explains how certain properties appear in the world when they didn’t exist before, such as normativity and value. The concept of normativity, value, and good or bad chemistry emerged around 3.5 to 3.8 billion years ago, and it can be observed in the interactions between bacteria, viruses, and human beings. Transcript: Speaker 1 Well, one of the problems is the term has been used as you say, so diversely. It’s been used to talk about almost magic, you know, how something that didn’t exist, you know, rabbit coming out of the hat. To some extent, we have that feeling when we think about, for example, the origins of life. There was nothing like it there before, it’s like pulling a rabbit out of the hat. But what we know about magic is it’s all trickery. You know, it’s just how things get organized and how the causality is not obvious from the start but shows up eventually. So emergence first of all is not magic. But what we do want to explain is how certain kinds of properties of things show up in the world when they didn’t exist before that. The case of life that we’ve just started this conversation on maybe has to do with something like normativity, value, the fact that there can be good and bad chemistry. There’s not good and bad chemistry in a cosmic sense, but for every bacterium and even for every virus, there is good and bad chemistry. We can talk about destroying killing viruses. We’ve been in the process of trying to deal without a get rid of viruses. It’s bad for viruses, but we’re doing it. Having human beings that pass this stuff on by coughing and sneezing at each other is good for the viruses. Not normativity appeared on the earth somewhere around 3.5, 3.8 billion years (Time 0:31:23)
Emergence and Reversal in Thermodynamic and Morphodynamic Processes In thermodynamic systems, the balance between energy production and dissipated systems leads to processes that seemingly invert the logic of the second law of thermodynamics, resulting in more organized systems. Similarly, juxtaposing morphodynamic processes in a way that complements each other produces reversals of processes that tend to undermine themselves. These reversals, resembling a rabbit coming out of the appearance, suggest a physical story rather than magic, and an indication that it’s not completely reducible through reductionism. Transcript: Speaker 1 That they emerge in thermodynamic systems when energy production systems and dissipated systems are balanced to each other in certain ways. What happens is you get processes that seem to invert the logic that was happening before that. As you invert superficially and locally what looks like what the second law of thermodynamics should have produced, the whirlpool is more organized. The question is, is there another step like that going to life? What I’ve tried to describe just a few minutes ago was how also juxtaposing morphodynamic processes, self-organizing processes with respect to each other in such a way that they complement Each other, also produces another reversal. That is, the reversal of these processes that tend to undermine themselves. Life doesn’t tend to undermine itself. These are reversals, and so it has this sort of rabbit coming out of the appearance. What I’ve tried to say is that, no, if we actually look at how this actually happens, there’s a physical story to be told. It’s not magic. It also doesn’t mean that it’s completely reducible. One of the ways that people have used the term emergent is to talk about it’s not reductionism. Reductionism says that everything that’s going on is just the bumping in of atoms bumping into each other, atoms in (Time 0:33:46)
1min Snip Transcript: Speaker 1 We’re not talking about adding new kinds of atoms, new kinds of materials. They could all have been explained with chemistry. In fact, organic chemistry can be explained chemically. How the organic molecules get generated is also a chemical process, but it’s a specially constrained chemical process. So that I think of emergence as the very fact that new information, new constraints, can always be created and can be destroyed. But when certain kinds of constraints are produced, the kind of constraints that I call tealaeodynamic constraints, that is the kind of constraints that we see in living processes That have an end that tend to maintain themselves. Once you have that, now you have a system that can evolve, can get more complex. And in that respect, what I mean by getting more complex is you’re adding more complex kinds of constraints. Our brain is not doing anything that’s not possible chemically or physically, but it’s doing it in a very uniquely constrained and complex constrained way. It’s adding new constraints. Constraints can be added. New kinds of prevention can be added to the world. (Time 0:35:48)
The Nature of Self and Indirectiveness in the Origins of Life The origins of life are tied to the origins of indirectiveness, forming a circular process of producing something to make it possible to produce something. This concept extends to all life and marks the beginning of what is referred to as ‘self’. Understanding the nature of self is crucial in explaining the emergence of consciousness, the role of brains, and the concept of self-repair in maintaining its existence. Transcript: Speaker 1 Well, so the first point is that it had to emerge initially, right? The origins of life is actually about the origins of indirectiveness. And the end is to maintain the ability to have indirectiveness. So it’s a circle in that respect. That is, I’m producing something to make it possible to produce something. That is the case for all life. In fact, that’s the, you might say, the beginning of what we want to call self. And this is why it’s going to expand well beyond the origins of life. Because what we really want to explain is how self comes into the world. And that’s of course what we want to explain in terms of us. And in terms of what brains do, what consciousness is about, at the highest level. But if we don’t understand the nature of self, we can’t even get started. And so part of what I wanted to do in this work is to say, okay, let’s try to get the most straightforward, simplest understanding of how self comes into the world. And the way it does is that it now constrains what can happen so that self doesn’t disappear. If it gets damaged, it repairs itself. (Time 0:39:03)
The Power of DNA as a Robust and Memory System DNA is more durable than dynamical processes, making it a robust molecule that is easily remembered. RNA molecules, on the other hand, are not as durable and therefore are better at regulation. DNA, in essence, merely needs to remember the conditions that make certain processes likely to happen, rather than actively putting things together. Transcript: Speaker 1 Now what’s interesting about this process is that as soon as you do that, you have something that’s more durable than dynamical processes like the actual interactions of proteins In a cell. The durable thing can stay there because it’s easily remembered. The power of DNA in part is the fact that it’s a very robust molecule. It’s hard to mess it up. And as we thought, it’s a great memory system. RNA molecules are not so good they’re easy to break up. But because of that, RNA molecules do a lot more regulation. Now here’s the thing, I like to call this the, we’ve all heard of the selfish gene story. I like to think about this as the lazy gene story. If processes tend to happen spontaneously in the world, once you’ve got a bunch of molecules sitting out there, and just because of their shape and the way they interact, they spontaneously Produce structures. They fall together in the way that snow crystals simply fall together in regular shapes because of the very nature of water molecules and their geometry. Those are things that if that happens spontaneously, all DNA has to do is to remember the conditions that make it likely to happen. DNA doesn’t have to do the work of putting things together. (Time 0:42:01)
Natural Spirals and the Fibonacci Sequence The spirals in nature, such as those in sunflowers, pine cones, and other plants, are based on the golden mean or golden section ratio, resulting in regular spirals. These spirals are associated with spiral phyotaxis, where the seeds are organized in interlocking spirals curving in opposite directions, with the number of curves being adjacent Fibonacci numbers. For example, sunflowers exhibit interlocking spirals in the form of adjacent Fibonacci numbers, with one direction having a higher number of curves than the other. This pattern is also observed in many other plants, demonstrating higher order relationships in natural formations. Transcript: Speaker 1 And this is what’s produced also what we call the golden mean, the golden section ratio, the thing that makes spirals regular as they grow out. Well, one of the most interesting spirals in life is what we call spiral phyotaxis. What I mean by this is looking at the surface of a sunflower, for example. You see that the seeds are all organized in interesting kind of spiral patterns. In fact, the spiral of the sunflower has to do with two interlocking spirals that curve in opposite directions. And the number of curves, those spirals, curving to the right versus curving to the left, and in a sense, crossing over each other like this, turn out to be adjacent Fibonacci numbers. So that there’s some like in, for example, pine cones. One of the curves is a five. The other curve is typically an eight. There’s eight in one direction, five in the other direction, and they inter fit with each other. However, you can get much higher order relationships in things like sunflowers and things. It turns out that many, many plants are organized this way. (Time 0:44:03)
Natural Organization and the Fibonacci Series Many plants are organized using the Fibonacci series, which allows leaves to be dispersed in a way that minimizes interference and maximizes sunlight capture. This organization also occurs in the surface of sunflowers, where droplets form Fibonacci spirals, and on electrically charged surfaces, where iron filings self-organize into successive Fibonacci spirals. This natural phenomenon occurs spontaneously as new parts are maximally positioned out of the way of the last ones. Transcript: Speaker 1 There’s eight in one direction, five in the other direction, and they inter fit with each other. However, you can get much higher order relationships in things like sunflowers and things. It turns out that many, many plants are organized this way. Now, there’s a real advantage to this organization because it also keeps, you know, if you’ve got to stock in a bunch of leaves, it keeps the leaves maximally from interfering with each Other. If you want to have a really successful way of capturing sunlight, you want to have your leaves dispersed in such a way that they’re minimally out of each other’s way. The Fibonacci series allows that to happen. It’s a very, very useful series. Well, why does it happen in the surface of a sunflower? It turns out that we can produce the same series by dropping droplets that will stay in a particular size and won’t fit with each other into a bowl. They’ll begin to form a Fibonacci spiral. We can now do this show this on an electrically charged surface that little iron filings will organize themselves into successive Fibonacci spirals. This thing happens spontaneously precisely because they’re pushing each other out of position in just such a way that new parts added will have a new position and will be maximally Out of position of the last ones. (Time 0:45:01)
The Capacity of Living Processes to Maintain Dissipation Transcript: Speaker 1 But then there are these processes we just were talking about that by virtue of going down to those states, do so in such a way that in the process they generate localized form. That form is transient, it disappears fairly quickly. I call that morphodynamics. I think to some extent the term self-organization, which is a little broader in its usage, corresponds to morphodynamics. But what I wanted was a term that talked about, then you might say the feature of dynamics that stands out, the form generating dynamics. Tileo, of course, refers to teleology and directed. But so my interest here was to say, okay, clearly living processes are dynamical processes. Living processes are thermodynamic processes. Living processes are far from equilibrium, thermodynamic processes that are dissipating and generating order like a world tool or like the formation of the snow crystal. And yet they do one other thing, living processes maintain that capacity. That is they keep things far from equilibrium. They are not just generating form by far from equilibrium processes. They’re actually maintaining the capacity to do that, not allowing those processes to run out. And that now becomes not just an end that they go towards, but an end that they maintain that’s unstable. Living processes are maintaining an unstable distance from equilibrium. (Time 0:51:22)
teleología
The Self-Organizing Universe Transcript: Speaker 1 Living processes are maintaining an unstable distance from equilibrium. We’re maintaining ourselves. Now because we’re also self-organizing or morphodynamic, we also need to have input of materials and energy, just like the world pool needs. So part of what’s going on is it’s structured in such a way that it finds new sources of energy, finds new sources of material that are constantly being broken down by the second law. But it’s teleodynamic has a dynamic that’s towards an end, and that end turns out to be itself, but there are also sub ends in this process. One end is therefore keeping in touch with a source of energy, keeping away from dangerous processes. Those are ends. So in just having an end to maintain yourself, because you’re maintained by virtue of constantly taking in energy and material from the environment and resisting perturbation from The environment. You also have those as ends, you might say sub ends. And as things get more complex, there will be more and more sub ends in this process. Tealodynamics is a process that becomes more teleological over time. The ends become more complex over time. And the development of human ends, of course, are much, much more complex. But they’re built up by this billions of years process of ends being built upon ends being built upon ends that originally start from just keeping yourself going. Yeah. (Time 0:53:06)
sub_fines teleodinámica teleología
Teleodynamics and the Complexity of Ends Living systems are self-organizing and require input of materials and energy to maintain themselves. They constantly seek new sources of energy and materials, while resisting perturbation from the environment. In this teleodynamic process, maintaining contact with energy sources and avoiding dangerous processes are sub ends. As systems become more complex, more sub ends emerge, making the process more teleological over time. Human development involves much more complex ends than those of other living systems. Transcript: Speaker 1 We’re maintaining ourselves. Now because we’re also self-organizing or morphodynamic, we also need to have input of materials and energy, just like the world pool needs. So part of what’s going on is it’s structured in such a way that it finds new sources of energy, finds new sources of material that are constantly being broken down by the second law. But it’s teleodynamic has a dynamic that’s towards an end, and that end turns out to be itself, but there are also sub ends in this process. One end is therefore keeping in touch with a source of energy, keeping away from dangerous processes. Those are ends. So in just having an end to maintain yourself, because you’re maintained by virtue of constantly taking in energy and material from the environment and resisting perturbation from The environment. You also have those as ends, you might say sub ends. And as things get more complex, there will be more and more sub ends in this process. Tealodynamics is a process that becomes more teleological over time. The ends become more complex over time. And the development of human ends, of course, are much, much more complex. (Time 0:53:12)
Hierarchy of motivations in living organisms and the self within the self Living organisms evolve to replicate and maintain themselves, leading to a hierarchy of motivations with reproduction at the top. Brains exhibit a hierarchy of motivations, with basic needs like water and food taking precedence. Additionally, animals have a self within the self, which distinguishes them from other teleodynamic bodies, allowing them to maintain their sense of self even if parts of their body are lost. Transcript: Speaker 2 And I mean, I can, you know, what I start to think about here with a background in neuroscience is, you know, if you imagine sort of the simplest pseudo life forms that arose, they’re basically, You know, going to be some little cell that is, you know, sucking in nutrients from the environment in order to keep itself going. Once you have that, there’s going to be an immense selection pressure to do that and also create a copy of yourself to replicate. And as soon as you have that, you’re going to out compete the things that are simply eating to maintain themselves and not replicating. And if you just sort of roll the clock forward and you start to think about animals with brains and things like that, right, what you tend to find in brains is sort of a hierarchy of motivations. And you know, we always think about the reproductive one being on top that’s sort of the final and the final telos. And then of course, right, you’ve got to drink water and you’ve got to do that even more than you got to eat food because you’ll die earlier without water and you got to eat food more than You’ve got to, you know, do these other things and you sort of get these, these different ends that stack on top of each other in a hierarchy. Is that how you start to think about things like animals? Speaker 1 I do. And there’s a second issue with respect to brains. It’s very important. And that is that our bodies are teleodynamic. They’re they’re maintained. They do all of this stuff to maintain themselves as every plant body, as every fungal body does. On top of that, animals do something interesting. They have added a component of brain that has its own self. It’s a self within the self. So I oftentimes think about the fact that, you know, I could lose a leg in an accident and myself would be maintained. (Time 0:54:47)
Teleodynamics in Bodies and the Generation of Self Bodies are teleodynamic, meaning they maintain themselves. Animals have an added component of brain which forms a self within the self. This self is maintained separately from the rest of the body. Teleodynamics generate the sense of self within creatures with nervous systems. Transcript: Speaker 1 I do. And there’s a second issue with respect to brains. It’s very important. And that is that our bodies are teleodynamic. They’re they’re maintained. They do all of this stuff to maintain themselves as every plant body, as every fungal body does. On top of that, animals do something interesting. They have added a component of brain that has its own self. It’s a self within the self. So I oftentimes think about the fact that, you know, I could lose a leg in an accident and myself would be maintained. In fact, we human beings are attached to this neurological self. But my point about teleodynamics is that teleodynamics is generating self. If we want to understand why critters with nervous systems have a sense of self, it’s a sense of self within a self. (Time 0:55:53)
Sentience and the Physiological Self The self relies on the physiological body, and the nervous system assesses and runs simulations about the body and its environment. This is what is referred to as sentience in the broadest sense, and it is observed even in bacteria as they respond and react to changes in their environment to maintain themselves. Transcript: Speaker 1 Going under the knife and anesthesia because myself is going to come back again and be maintained. I am worried about dying, however, because the self that’s neurological depends upon this other self. But in a sense, we have a very clear sense that part of this mental self is also in an environment of physiological body self. A lot of what our nervous system is doing is assessing all those features of our body. In fact, that’s what they evolved to do initially. And it runs basically simulations about that body. But now simulations about that body with respect to the rest of the world. In a way that plants don’t do, plants are more directly involved in this. So I like to call all of this sentience in the broadest sense. I think that even bacteria have a sentience in the sense that they respond to their environment and they react to changes in their environment to maintain themselves. (Time 0:57:40)
The Nature of Self and Sentience The neurological self is interconnected with the physiological body and the environment, leading to a sense of self-maintenance and survival. Nervous systems constantly assess the body and simulate its interactions with the world, even in a state of anesthesia or sleep. This concept of self within a self is termed as a second order of teleodynamics, and the ability to respond to and maintain oneself is defined as sentience in the broadest sense. Transcript: Speaker 1 Going under the knife and anesthesia because myself is going to come back again and be maintained. I am worried about dying, however, because the self that’s neurological depends upon this other self. But in a sense, we have a very clear sense that part of this mental self is also in an environment of physiological body self. A lot of what our nervous system is doing is assessing all those features of our body. In fact, that’s what they evolved to do initially. And it runs basically simulations about that body. But now simulations about that body with respect to the rest of the world. In a way that plants don’t do, plants are more directly involved in this. So I like to call all of this sentience in the broadest sense. I think that even bacteria have a sentience in the sense that they respond to their environment and they react to changes in their environment to maintain themselves. Plants do that as well. Our body does that as well, even when we’re asleep, even when we’re anesthetized. But there’s a sense in which we’re also doing that in a kind of simulation level. And nervous systems are doing that. So it’s a self within a self in some sense. It’s a second order of teleodynamics is what I like to call it. Or you might say there is vegetative sentience, which is more directly related to the world. (Time 0:57:40)
1min Snip Transcript: Speaker 1 I like to say that machines don’t think and brains don’t compute. And what I mean by that, I think can be understood in the following sense. That is, take the parts of a machine, we put them together. The parts are independent of each other. We put them together. And if they work just right in interacting with each other, they produce some consequence. I talked about this early on in our conversation about, you know, you constrain the way they interact. And if you constrain them just right, they produce something. They are not about themselves. What they’re doing is not maintaining themselves. It’s not generating themselves. There’s nothing about the cogs in a clock or the gates in a computer that are about producing clogs or producing gates or maintaining clogs or gates. Everything about a neuron is about maintaining itself. It’s being disturbed by all kinds of inputs coming in. And it’s responding by changing its metabolism and sending out some (Time 1:00:36)
1min Snip Transcript: Speaker 1 And chemistry and information. But as the organism develops, and these cells divide and divide, become different parts of the body, they turn on and off some aspects of the information that was there initially. But to some extent, because they differentiate from a hole that was functioning from the very beginning, didn’t wait until all the parts were put together to function. Individual zygote is still a functioning, complete functioning organism in some sense. It’s single-celled organism. But in the process of differentiating and producing all of these parts, all the parts, to some extent, maintain a trace of the hole. The hole-ness that was there at the beginning that’s never lost. In some sense, in no part of a machine has that. Every single part of a machine that we put together, of a computer or a clock or whatever, is independent. It’s assembled by putting things together that were a part, whereas an organism builds by differentiating what was originally already a functioning hole. (Time 1:02:31)
2min Snip Transcript: Speaker 1 And chemistry and information. But as the organism develops, and these cells divide and divide, become different parts of the body, they turn on and off some aspects of the information that was there initially. But to some extent, because they differentiate from a hole that was functioning from the very beginning, didn’t wait until all the parts were put together to function. Individual zygote is still a functioning, complete functioning organism in some sense. It’s single-celled organism. But in the process of differentiating and producing all of these parts, all the parts, to some extent, maintain a trace of the hole. The hole-ness that was there at the beginning that’s never lost. In some sense, in no part of a machine has that. Every single part of a machine that we put together, of a computer or a clock or whatever, is independent. It’s assembled by putting things together that were a part, whereas an organism builds by differentiating what was originally already a functioning hole. In other words, engineering is in some respects the inverse of life in the way we produce a complex structure. I like to say that cognition, we’ve got to start thinking about cognition as a living process. Cognition is a process that I think is also differentiating like organisms. I don’t think thoughts are composed of parts put together. They’re differentiated feelings, (Time 1:02:31)
1min Snip Transcript: Speaker 1 Absolutely right. And another way to think about it is that because you’re far from equilibrium, because you’re not a chunk of metal that won’t decay, but because being constantly active is the only way You stay far from equilibrium, you stay organized. Then to some extent, the environment is absolutely critical. Everything that’s not me is critical to everything that’s me. And so sentience is the fact that if you’re that kind of a thing, you always are in tension with the environment, with the environment with respect to what your needs are. Now whether you’re a bacterial cell, a neuron, or a whole body, that’s true. Nothing about a machine is doing that. The machine, each part is interacting with other parts in maybe very complex ways, but that interaction has nothing to do with that part’s existence. Machines aren’t involved in their own existence. Everything about life is about existing. I like to distinguish this using almost philosophical terms, existing versus being. Rocks can continue to exist. (Time 1:09:12)
1min Snip Transcript: Speaker 2 As we sort of think, go from this basic sentience, this basic self-preservation quality that life and even individual cells have. We start to think about higher order things like having this sort of second order sense of self, the simulation of yourself and things like emotion. How do you distinguish between something like sentience and a consciously experienced emotion? How do you think about that in terms of the kinds of dynamics you discuss in the book? Speaker 1 That’s a good question. Let me start with the simplest version of this. They set us on this problem of trying to solve consciousness and self and cognition and so on with this cogito ergo sum. That is, I think, therefore I am. A student once suggested that we should change this, and I think the student was right. I feel, therefore, I’m real. This you’re an organism that is constantly at (Time 1:11:27)
The Flame of Thought Transcript: Speaker 1 So I used to talk about how brains function. I’m a neuroscientist by background. And what I begin to think about how brains function in these terms, I realized that once we get over the computer metaphor, we start thinking about neurons as chips sending signals back And forth, I begin to recognize that maybe I should be using the same logic we’ve talked about the origins of life with. The origins of life is about how new form of self comes into the world. How new kinds of telos, new kinds of indirectiveness emerge in the world. How do they emerge? They emerge out of this particular relationship between morphodynamic processes, processes that are generating form. Those are all dynamical processes. I now am beginning to think that, in fact, it’s not that neurons are storing information, that a thought is something dynamical. It’s something like a flame, something like the whirlpool. It’s a dynamical structure. It’s the result of millions of neurons or hundreds of thousands of neurons turning each other on and off, up regulating and down regulating each other’s firing patterns, producing A kind of orchestral piece, local orchestral piece, in which some things are getting louder, something to do, and softer. There’s lots of neurons firing together in synchrony and dis-synchrony and in counterpoint of each other. I think of a thought like I think of a piece of music. I think that what we experience, the units that the experience that brains produce, I think are what we call in dynamical processes, attractors. I think it’s much more appropriate to describe them as something like a melody or actually almost orchestral piece. (Time 1:13:25)
Dynamic Nature of Thoughts and Brain Function Neurons do not store information but rather produce dynamic thought structures through complex interactions and firing patterns. Thoughts are akin to dynamic structures like a flame or whirlpool, created by neurons orchestrating an intricate pattern of activation and deactivation. The brain’s functioning resembles an orchestral piece, with neurons firing in synchrony, dis-synchrony, and counterpoint. Thoughts can be likened to pieces of music, and the brain’s produced experiences are considered as attractors in dynamical processes. Transcript: Speaker 1 I now am beginning to think that, in fact, it’s not that neurons are storing information, that a thought is something dynamical. It’s something like a flame, something like the whirlpool. It’s a dynamical structure. It’s the result of millions of neurons or hundreds of thousands of neurons turning each other on and off, up regulating and down regulating each other’s firing patterns, producing A kind of orchestral piece, local orchestral piece, in which some things are getting louder, something to do, and softer. There’s lots of neurons firing together in synchrony and dis-synchrony and in counterpoint of each other. I think of a thought like I think of a piece of music. I think that what we experience, the units that the experience that brains produce, I think are what we call in dynamical processes, attractors. (Time 1:14:15)
Procesos de auto organización como estructuras disipativas. Transcript: Speaker 1 This is the process of self-organization. How does it happen? It happens in the physical world by pouring energy through a system, forcing energy through a system. What’s happening when these patterns generate in the nervous system? It turns out we now have a way to recognize this. It’s using fMRI or PET techniques. We’re actually looking at the fact that metabolism changes. I like to think about the increase of metabolism as being like heating up a system that’s generating a pattern or like increasing the flow of water down a trough and increasing, as a result, The number of whirlpools that form. One of the things that happens is to generate new form. One of the things we have to do is we have to have a dissipative process in which you pour energy through the system. (Time 1:17:06)
Neuroscientist’s study on rabbit olfactory bulbs A neuroscientist studied rabbit olfactory bulbs and found that when rabbits focus on a particular smell they’ve learned to recognize, the activity in the olfactory bulb changes from chaotic to a distinctive regular pattern. This indicates that the olfactory bulb transitions from a dynamical and chaotic condition to a regularized state when a specific smell is being focused on. Transcript: Speaker 1 What originally made me think about this is work by a neuroscientist here at Berkeley from now a generation ago, a man named Walter Freeman. He was studying how rabbit olfactory bulbs work. The nice thing about the rabbit olfactory bulb, this is the part of the brain that takes in smell. It’s got a fairly wide surface. They’re flat on the surface. Olfactory bulb cortex is a little bit like cerebral cortex. It’s a cortex that sells in it that are organized in a sort of not columnar pattern, but basically a radial pattern. It’s a kind of cortex. What Walter Freeman found is that when rabbits begin to focus on a particular smell, and they’ve learned to recognize this smell, the activity in the olfactory bulb goes from relatively Chaotic to regular pattern. Each smell has a distinctive regular pattern. What’s happening is that when it’s not focused on a particular smell, it’s in what we call dynamical and chaotic condition. As it begins to focus on a particular smell, it becomes regularized. (Time 1:19:13)
Interplay of Neural Activity and Metabolism in Cognitive Changes The sensitivity of neurons is regulated by sensory systems within the body, which can up regulate or down regulate the amount of metabolism and its distribution. Understanding the circumstances under which metabolic changes drive cognitive changes, and vice versa, is a current challenge. Neural activity assesses the need for metabolic changes, which are then directed by deep parts of the brain, creating a complex loop between neural activity and metabolism. This interaction ultimately influences cognitive changes, with a primary focus on the role of feeling in this process. Transcript: Speaker 1 And changing the sensitivity of neurons is also something that sensory systems within the body are providing neurons, up regulating and down regulating the amount of metabolism And its distribution. One of the things we’re struggling with is to try to find out currently techniques that will allow us to understand under what circumstances metabolic changes drive cognitive changes And cognitive changes pull up or drive down metabolic changes. And it looks as though there’s a complicated loop in this process in which neural activity gets assessed and that assessment is set down to the midbrain and brainstem, deep parts of The brain that say, okay, now let’s shift metabolism of the cortex from where it was before to this new place. So that in effect, there’s this complicated loop between neural activity and metabolism where neural activity is in one area is changing the metabolism in another area, which changes Its neural activity, which changes the metabolism in another area, which changes its neural activity and so on. Feeling as I think about it is first of all, primate, primary, primary. Feeling is what it’s all about. (Time 1:22:38)
Metabolic Scope of Muscle Cells and Neurons Muscle cells have a low resting metabolism but can generate a tremendous amount of energy, dissipating it as heat during activity. This enables them to exert high energy flow and quickly lead to sweating during physical activity. In contrast, neurons have a shallow metabolic scope, starting at a high level, but unable to be pushed much higher, leading to the perception that the nervous system uses more energy compared to the rest of the body. Transcript: Speaker 1 That means the resting or basal metabolism of muscle cells is very, very low. It doesn’t take much to keep them alive, but they can have a scope in which they can be doing tremendous amount of energy. Tremendous amount of energy can flow through them. In doing so, entropy is being generated and that’s dissipated in our bodies as heat. Climbing the stairs or running on the treadmill. I’ve shoved my metabolic scope way high in all my muscle mass, producing huge amounts of flow through of this energy. I only have to go up a couple of flights of stairs before I’m sweating. Comparison, as you were just suggesting, here I am. I’m doing some exam testing me to the limits. I never break a sweat. We sometimes say that, well, gee, the nervous system uses so much energy compared to the rest of the body. That’s because the basal metabolism of the brain starts at a higher level. The metabolic scope of neurons is very shallow, but it starts at a very high level and can’t be pushed much higher than that. (Time 1:30:26)
The nature of agency and constraints in shaping actions and outcomes Constraints and absences play a crucial role in shaping actions and outcomes, as they represent the absence of certain possibilities and the constraining of energy expression in the body. The informational nature of causality from something that doesn’t exist yet involves representing patterns of activity as a result of constraints, influencing the way the world changes. Information can be seen as the reduction of degrees of freedom and uncertainty, leading to the prevention of certain events from happening. Ultimately, agency is described as a loop of prevention and absences, highlighting the role of constraints in shaping and constraining actions. Transcript: Speaker 1 In one sense, it’s the absence of that thing in the world that I want to accomplish captured by the constraints, absences in the dynamics that is actually constraining my activities, Selecting some and eliminating others, absences representing absences that cause absences in the expression of energy as it’s distributed in my body, that therefore causes me to Cause some things to happen, other things not to happen in the world. In one sense, the informational nature of that loop of causality from something in the world that doesn’t yet exist, that I can represent by a pattern of activity also the result of constraints. To constrain my activity, to constrain the way the world changes. This is a series of constraints, a series of absences, a series of things being prevented. We like to think of information in the positive sense, but it’s a variant of what you just described and that is the reduction of degrees of freedom is also the reduction of uncertainty. The reduction of things that could have happened that are now prevented from happening. That loop is a loop of dynamical mental causality, that’s what we might call agency. Notice that agency is in a sense ultimately a loop of prevention, a loop of absences. (Time 1:36:22)
Understanding the concept of Gava guy The concept of Gava guy refers to identifying the commonality among different objects and resolving the similarity relationships in a language. It involves moving beyond mere pointing and abstention to understand that it signifies a correlation and points to something. By observing the common form shared by various objects when associated with Gava guy, one begins to discern the similarity among them and resolve the iconic and similarity relationships. Transcript: Speaker 1 The question is, does Gava guy refer to rabbit, to brown furry object, to moving object, to animate object, to mammal, to what? How does the native figure this out? What Quai was trying to say is that just pointing, what he called abstention, doesn’t resolve it, that’s a correlation, that’s an index, it points to something. But if every time a horse goes by and you say, Gava guy, and every time a person goes by and you say, Gava guy, you’ve got a comparison of icons. An icon is like a picture, something that shares a common form. Well, it turns out that say, Gava guy again and again and again, basically shares a common form. But according to a horse and a person and a rabbit and a dog and a cat, but not a car, you’re now forced to say, okay, if Gava guy is all similar, what’s similar about all those things? When we learn a language, what we’re doing is we’re resolving that relationship, taking the iconic relationships, the similarity relationships, (Time 1:43:12)
The Unique Ability of Humans to Influence Each Other’s Thoughts Humans have the unique ability to influence each other’s thoughts and emotions, which sets them apart from other species. This is attributed to their capability to refer to things and ideas, and to get inside each other’s heads. Unlike chimpanzees who cannot share their histories or thoughts, humans constantly occupy and share each other’s thoughts, allowing them to influence each other in ways that no other species can. Transcript: Speaker 1 In this respect, we’ve since made things more ambiguous because they’re no longer neatly grounded in things in the world. But we’ve also gained all kinds of freedom to refer to things. Once we’ve done this, we can do something that no other species can do, which is get inside of each other’s heads. I can be providing ideas that will influence what you think, or will piss you off, or will make you struggle to make sense of it. We can fall in love with each other because we in a sense occupy each other’s thoughts. We share each other’s thoughts. Two chimpanzees brought together for the first time. Can’t share their histories. Can’t say, this is what happened to me last week. Can’t say, this is what I want and like. I could eventually maybe these chimpanzees can discover it by continually being correlated with each other, observing the similarities of activity of each other, but they can never Get inside of each other’s heads. We human beings live in this world all the time. (Time 1:46:02)
Sentience as a Micro Evolutionary Process The concept of sentience is linked to evolution, and it is described as a micro evolutionary process in action. The experience of being sentient is likened to the feeling of evolution. This perspective also includes the cognition and embryogenesis aspects, where thoughts and perceptions have to differentiate. Transcript: Speaker 2 So going back to the concept of sentience and linking this to evolution. And eventually when I ask you about things like cultural evolution and processes that are involving many minds simultaneously rather than just one brain at a time, you wrote in the Book that sentience is not just a product of biological evolution, but many respects a micro evolutionary process in action. The experience of being sentient is what it feels like to be evolution. What exactly did you mean by that? Speaker 1 So in a sense, what we think about evolution, and I want to say that I want to enlarge this not just to evolution, but you might say the evo-devo perspective. What I’ve been talking about is cognition is a little bit also like embryogenesis. A thought, even a perception I think has to differentiate. (Time 1:55:19)
Cognición se estructura de manera análoga a la selección natural. Transcript: Speaker 1 Think about thought processes now. If thought processes are generating, are morphodynamic, are generating form, generating music, so to speak. One of the things that perception is doing is selecting on those forms that are more consistent with what’s coming in, eliminating those self-organizing processes, those melodies That are not consistent with what’s coming in, and therefore selecting. The evolutionary process is that self-organization is generating form, generating structure at various levels of differentiation. Initially, a thought is very undifferentiated. What we do as we take that undifferentiated thought and begin to select what aspects of it are relevant and whatnot, and that helps generate the next level. In fact, part of my analysis of nervous system structure, and now it’s become, it turns out, to be a major way that people talk about the nervous system, sometimes called predictive Coding, or generating something that predicts and then natural selection, in this case, not natural selection, but sensory selection, says, okay, those predictions are wrong. These predictions are right. Let’s put it, push it forward. I think in order to differentiate something, you have to generate form and then select on the forms that are generated. This is happening also in development, we generate tissues, and then we select from them. The brain is in particular a situation in which this occurs. We generate regular form that’s fairly generic in early embryogenesis of the brain, and then we allow the signals being passed around in the brain to select some connections and eliminate Other connections. The development of brains goes through a kind of micro-evolutionary process. It’s not just embryological, but it’s also doing selection. It’s generating more possible connections and then constraining those. Sometimes this has been likened to Darwinian processes, Gerald Edelman, called this neural Darwinism, but I think this is a general process in which brains generate the complexity They have in part the way evolution does on the fly. Generating form, selecting on that form, generating new form from that, selecting on that form, and so on. (Time 1:58:48)
The Metaphysical Feature of Time and Emergence The nature of time is about the essential incompleteness of the world, as configurations of matter are always incomplete. This essential incompleteness allows for the possibility of emergence and evolution, as the world can grow, expand, and complexify. The circularity of causality and the necessary relationships between constraints and that which is constrained are also highlighted in this deep metaphysical insight. Transcript: Speaker 1 But because absences can be iterated and relation to each other in more and more complex ways, it’s that part of the world that can grow, can expand, can complexify. And as it complexifies, of course, the matter that embodies it complexifies. So evolution is possible. Now there’s a deep metaphysical feature here as well. It tells us about, to some extent, the nature of time itself. Time is about the incompleteness of things. There’s never a way that you can complete this. The configurations of matter, the configurations that exist now are always incomplete. Time is the essential incompleteness of the world. But because of this, emergence is possible. So I actually think that there’s a hidden double entendre in the title. And that’s because it basically says the universe is girdleian in terms of girdles and completeness proof. There’s something about the circularity of causality that we’ve been talking about, the necessary relationships between constraints and that which is constrained. (Time 2:10:38)